The previous post leads me, at least, to the above question. My co-pastor Tripp said to me recently said to me that he feared he would eventually loose me to Orthodoxy (I think as I told him I was studying the seven ecumenical councils and that I affirmed all of them, but neither of us feel that distant from the Orthodox or the RC). I don't have a clear answer, in my college years I came very close to becoming Catholic and then Orthodox.
My first year of college was a time of deep crisis of faith: That year I discovered in the Library both the magazine the Humanist and the Saint Ignatius of Antioch, Saint Ireneaus of Lyon, Gregory Dix's book The Shape of the Liturgy and Yves Conger (I think many of his books but one that explicitly saw ecumenism as a return to Rome). During this time I sought out the local Catholic Church where I prayed and meditated before the tabernacle, like any good Protestant does when in a crisis of faith, right!? At the end of the year I was actually allowed to give a talk at the college groups midweek Bible study on the failure of Protestantism and the need to at least consider that in the midst of leaving the Roman church that we had lost key points of the faith.
About the time I was preparing to give this talk, I discovered Luther's Works. Before reading Luther I was seriously thinking of becoming Catholic, Congar had been persuasive, mainly because the church I was in looked nothing like the church of Ireneaus and Ignatius, and other of the Apostolic Fathers, and little of what I found at this Covenant church looked like anything that called itself the Church prior to the reformation (except for heretical movements), though it also was looking less and less like the faith I had been taught as a child (it was not the Covenant congregation that I and my mother had grown up in). Luther was familiar, Luther was nuts, Luther at least early Luther was clearly Catholic. Luther confronted me with the problem of the Reformation and what becoming Roman Catholic would mean: Was I repudiating everything I had been taught and all my teachers in the faith? Was I simply running from a certain responsibility to the community of faith in which I was raised? What would entering the Catholic Church mean if I were doing so because the faith I had been given compelled me in that direction? What I concluded at the time was that the desire to convert had more to do with being right than being faithful.
So, I remained, and remained in a church more and more mired in heretical beliefs (of the "conservative" and "fundamentalist " variety and not the "liberal" variety) masquerading as zeal for Christ. I then wandered for a time through the history of Protestantism and sat for awhile at the feet of the likes of Bultmann and Barth, even Spong and the Jesus Seminar, but the dead end of such Protestantism was fairly evident, and the Word of God Theologians were never radical enough for me. At some point Dostoyevsky entered my life and would occasionally visit Orthodox churches, the parishes I visited some small, were always very friendly, the liturgy and icons were very compelling if at first a bit overwhelming. Though my own personal aesthetic couldn't quite penetrate what i was seeing and experiencing though I recognized in it truth and like praying before the tabernacle in the Roman Catholic church I knew I was in the presence of God. However, I never really considered becoming Orthodox, the same scenario seemed to apply here as with Roman Catholicism. Unlike, a number of converts I did not find in Orthodoxy or Catholicism the thing I had always been looking for, rather I simply saw the treasure I already had,: I saw that Christ was there clearly and fully. Though I have to admit that Orthodoxy has always had a greater draw for me than the Roman Church.
In short as I look back on these encounters these near conversions to Catholicism and Orthodoxy, I see that I was prevented from leaving Protestantism, not because I have ever felt the fullness of the faith is here, but that had I converted at the time that it would have been a private, individualistic and selfish act, i.e. a very Protestant act, and I simply would have been confirmed in a false faith that would have committed me to a Protestant faith in Catholic or Orthodox drag. Some converts I encounter seem to have such a faith: They have found the pure Church they seem to say, and i hear in their words something more akin to the Donatists than to the faith of the Catholic and Orthodox faith. But more to the point was that if I was to become Orthodox or Catholic that I was not to do it alone, that if Protestantism was indeed beyond the church then I needed to wait for the right time, a time that was not my own. I at times loose sight of the fact that this is in fact why I have neither become Orthodox nor Catholic. though I am not confronted with the puzzle of the schism between East and West and its meaning.
Ecumenical work seems the place to be in this trajectory towards the full faith of the Church. The question for me isn’t what is the faith or the Church really, but of living faithfully as one who did not choose to be a schismatic and not believing it would be true and faithful to simply comfort myself while leaving many to simply flounder on their own. So, I see my responsibility as a pastor to direct as many as possible to the full faith and in so doing stir up a discontentment with schismatic Protestantism and instill a love and respect for the Church of Christ, as being inseparable from faith in Jesus Christ.
But in the end I can only say that I have been mysteriously prevented in my self from becoming Orthodox. By all standard accounts I should have long ago returned and become Catholic or Orthodox, in many ways it would have been easier. But so much that I know is from God would not have happened including meeting my wife, Kate. And now in the very least becoming Catholic or Orthodox would include her.
A side note it is interesting that I counseled a Spiritual Directee into the Orthodox Church a couple years back.
If you were working on a project and you had your own way of doing it, but knew another way was better and more correct - would it be better to stay with your way or try and learn the correct better way? Too often we hold on to how we've done things because of some emotional attachment to them and make the excuse that "that's what I know". It's not true - you know better and know more but then make an excuse of why not to pursue it.
ReplyDeleteMaybe your hesitation might say something about what you chose years ago and who you think you are because of it. You're right - you've prevented yourself - Jesus did not. It is not easier to become Orthodox or Catholic because then you must live up to all that it calls you to be. It's not to say that the faith you practice does not call you to much but that as much as you know as a pastor or leader, more would be expected from you for the good of others.
Because of the path you took, you met Kate - Blessings on both of you. If you had become Catholic you might have mat another person with good love too. You know and have known the truth of Orthodoxy and so far chosen not to go - God showed you and you choose not to follow. I'm sure you are living a good life, you pray, help others and are a good example for others. I have heard of several Protestant leaders who yearn for communion with Catholicism, want to have the Eurcharist, the real presence and even pray the rosary regularly and have a devotion to Mary, but just can't bring themselves to become Catholic. They have the hope thru ecuminism to be able to stay as they are and be in communion with Rome. They don't want to do the work and betray what they say they believe to this point.
I have recently read about some Christian Protestant leaders and professional professors who finally decided to join the Roman Catholic Church - because of the problems in their Protestant denomination or realizing the truth in the Catholic Church. It is a struggle. Living the truth you've known vs. living the truth you know is more correct is the issue. I'll pray for you. Enjoy your life. Blessings on your family. Pray for discernment and have the courage you need. Give yourself the same advice you gave to the directee.
I think as Protestant Americans, the mentality goes pretty deep. The "I" decides when I'm ready or when I'm not. I respect that you decided not to become Orthodox or Catholic because it wasn't the correct time, but choosing against conversion might not have been less Protestant than choosing to convert.
ReplyDeleteIn my experience (including my own) no one becomes Orthodox with pure motives. The service for the reception of new Orthodox (whether by chrismation or baptism) clearly places the conversion on *God.* God is the one who decides to bring you in or not.
You brought up Dostoyevskii. Alyosha was faced with a saintly man whose body became corrupted in an entirely unexpected way. The paradigm Alyosha hoped in was shattered, and he gave up, gloomy. But then, suddenly, he gave in and trusted God, embracing all of God's creation he could fit in his arms.
All we can really do is let the paradigm fall apart, and instead of losing faith, move our faith closer to God.
God bless you!
Larry,
ReplyDeleteThis is good stuff. I am not so sure that I would go as far as lobo, but I hope you are speaking to your director about such things. You know where I am in most of this...right with you.
Spending time with the Benedictines only served to remind me of that "hole" in my life that only this ecumenical fense-straddling seems to fill.
Could it be that God has called us to our ministry together for just that reason? We are able and called to stand on a tightrope, to see the chasm on either side and beg God's grace to continue to walk the thin line? Not many can do what we do. That is not a criticism of them, but it may be an indication of why we have been called to this work.
I pray that one day we may be received like Bro. Roger of Taize. I know, how arrogant! But it is what I pray for. I don't care if 10,000 people come our way, but I want people to see God and Church in us, and find it worthy of the name God of Love.
Is that too much to ask?
;-)
Good to have you back and thanks for answering the question I thought on reading your 'Reflection' post earlier (in which I commented giving my background): 'How did you become so keen on the Orthodox tradition?'
ReplyDeleteYou already know some of my thoughts on these issues from earlier comments but good to read more from you on these.
Ultimately one must choose Catholicism (including Orthodoxy) or a dead end (which is where all Protestantism logically, eventually ends up)...
Again I won't presume to tell you exactly how and yes, timing and tact are important. But waiting until the bitter end like Constantine putting off baptism isn't the way to go either.
On one hand I can't go in for (to quote a good friend) the 'La, la, la. Vatican II was not properly implemented. Mistakes were made. We had to burn the village to save it. Just drink the Kool-Aid' approach of mainstream RC including its so-called conservatives (the 'personal cult' of Pope JPII for example). Also known as 'as long as it's a Wal-Mart': as long as the sign by the church door says 'RC' it doesn't matter what actually goes on inside, even it is really only liberal Protestantism. Bollocks.
On the other, as I've written elsewhere, though Orthodoxy is wonderful - largely an Eastern version of everything I've believed in all along rather like you wrote - the notion that one wasn't really a Christian before joining (some Orthodox say Orthodoxy doesn't teach that; others say it does) is an obstacle.
As I wrote to you before I entirely understand the reaction 'my native tradition is not crap'!
Brother Roger was a lovely man.
I'm with y'all on these points. I really am.
ReplyDeleteI cling to the claim that, (as, I think Cardinal Castrillon de Hoyos said), "while our communion is not perfect, neither is our schism." And while he said this of the See of Rome and the Traditionalists of the SSPX, I think that it cannot help but apply to others, to Protestants, since the SSPX's actions put them further from the Catholic Church than Protestants today, in my opinion.
I still have a great reverence for things Catholic: I still genuflect when I enter a Catholic Church, and I even pray the Rosary! But one thing I have gained in the last few years is a reverence also, for a Congregationalist Church or a Baptist Church, both the physical edifice and the member of the Body of Christ they represent. And this is a reverence I did not have before.
I pray that we may be one. I pray that the next time I go to Rome, I will be seen as part of that Church in the same way I see myself as part of that Church still.
Jorge: But, for all the good that's in it, and I'm more at home in parts of it than in mainstream RC, Lutheranism (except the historical footnote of the Swedish Church*) hasn't got apostolic bishops so in a serious way is partly cut off from the church.
ReplyDeleteSome converts I encounter seem to have such a faith: They have found the pure Church they seem to say, and I hear in their words something more akin to the Donatists than to the faith of the Catholic and Orthodox faith.
You may have thought I was one of them but I don't think I am. I've found that as well, among Vatican II conservative RCs, traditionalists and the convert boomlet among the Orthodox particularly online, and don't like it either.
But belief in truth claims doesn't necessarily mean that.
After all there is the reverent Orthodox view 'we know where the church is but don't say where it is not'.
*Or 'what Anglicanism would have been without the British Empire'. :)
lobo,
ReplyDeleteFirst, I suppose your metaphor strikes me as missing the point of my post: I am not working on a project, rather to use your metaphor I am a project God is working on.
My experience of Catholcisim and Orthodoxy is not one of otherness. I think this might be something difficult for Catholics and Orthodox to grasp, especially many Orthodox converts, at least those I know who seem to see a great gulf between their fiath as protestants and what they foudn in Orthodoxy.
What I have found in Catholicism and Orthodoxy was continuous with my faith that I attained in a Protestant context. In a sense this makes me wonder if the way i was raised up in fiath wasn't all that "Protestant".
I said prevented and did not attribute any agent to that prevention because I neither wished to reify my feeling prevented by claiming God has done the preventing nor down play it as if these choices are fully understood by me. There is an unknown aspect to my journeying very near Orthodoxy and Catholicism that, as I have said elsewhere, began by circumstance of my childhood and not of my own choice. Since the truth I found there never presented itself to me as other than the truth I already had there was no possibility of conversion and then becoming Orthodox or Catholic entails something more than my self and living into truth individualy.
I appreciate your prayers, you are not along among Catholic and Orthodox friends who continue to pray for me, for which I am grateful. May God complete the work God has begun.
Rich B,
ReplyDeleteYou may have a point, I perhaps do not and cannot escape being Protestant. However, I was using "Protestant" as short hand for a particular type of individualism, of the "save your own skin and to hell with everyone else."(quite litteraly) My family and many friends would have seen my becoming Orthodox or Catholic in my college days as impetuous and prideful, and they probably would have been right to think so. I think they are currenlty in a place that were I to become Catholic or Orthodox now they would be far more interested and willing to hear out why I had finnaly come to such a place (which I am not at right now as should be obvious to any reading this). My point is that if what you all are saying is true then perhaps the "conversion" needs to happen at the point when it is most possible that I would not do it alone. Of course there is the bit about leaving family in the Gospels, but at this point in time I do not see that I am failing to follow Christ, nor that I am entirely outside the church. To repeat myself, becoming Catholic or Orhtodox would not be "conversion" for me, and I suppose what actually prevents me is not quite knowing what doing so would mean. at the moment I do not see this as life and death for myself.
Perhaps I am missing something, perhaps it is some aspect of my ecclessiology. But it is where I remain. I appreciate your willingness to dialogue on this in this forum with me.
Fogey,
ReplyDeleteThe lack of bishops (in an apostolic sense) is a problem. Lutheran bishops are really just administrators. And while I don't think that my understanding of the episcopal office conforms perfectly to the Roman Catholic practice, I think that the ELCA needs to make the office of the bishop a more meaningful one in the life of the Church.
Tripp,
ReplyDeleteActually I haven't talked in any depth about this with my spiritual director, I think though because I hadn't been fully aware of the depth of the question. We have danced around it but never delt with it directly.
Young Fogey,
ReplyDeletedidn't see your comments when I was responding earliear.
I think I am beginning to suspect that you might be right about the ultimate dead end of Protestantism, hadn't seen that coming. Not sure that is completely true. Though I am not trying to hold out, just trying to sort things out, trying to not simply react, ultimately seeking to be guided wherever by Jesus Christ. If where I am at is not the church I am confident sooner than latter I will find my way. But I still have questions.
And as for what you sighted of my post, actually I was not thinking of you when I wrote that, it has become clear in the past couple months that is not where you are coming from.
Jorge and Young Fogey,
ReplyDeleteYour interchange over apostolic bishops reminds me that I have begun to wonder if what distinguishes the Protestantism that I grew up with in the Covenant is that it was still deeply influenced by this specific apostolicity of the Swedish Lutheran Church. It also explains why I am deeply concerned that this particular form of the Lutheran tradition is slowly being forgoten and/or dismissed amongst certain circles in the Covenant. There are those who seem to want this aspect of our heritage to be kept as a mere footnote to our history. The moment that would happen at the center of the Covenant I would no longer know my denomination, and it would cease to be the faith I was taught.
It is also perhaps not an accident that you Jorge are at an old Swedish Lutheran Church and that Reconciler is developing such a good relationship with the church.
Jorge:
ReplyDeleteI cling to the claim that, (as, I think Cardinal Castrillon de Hoyos said), "while our communion is not perfect, neither is our schism." And while he said this of the See of Rome and the Traditionalists of the SSPX, I think that it cannot help but apply to others, to Protestants...
Oh, I agree entirely.
...since the SSPX's actions put them further from the Catholic Church than Protestants today, in my opinion.
What is that opinion based on? Because the SSPX retain bishops, don't teach anything heretical and even don't reject the papacy on principle. They act as they do because of a state of emergency in the church, practically speaking. Perfectly sensible. My issue with them is they don't represent the breadth and depth of pre-conciliar Catholicism but only a few parts of it, such as Counter-Reformation religious-order life and something like parish life in the English-speaking world as it was in the 1950s, faults (perhaps even magnified in that hot-house environment) and all. It can become a kind of caricature.
Do you mean that born Protestants are in a better position in Rome's eyes, no personal guilt for being out of communion, than the SSPX?
So, if I may ask... why are you a Lutheran?
Just saw your answers now, Larry - thank you.
ReplyDeleteThough I am not trying to hold out, just trying to sort things out, trying to not simply react, ultimately seeking to be guided wherever by Jesus Christ. If where I am at is not the church I am confident sooner than latter I will find my way.
Sounds good to me.
...this specific apostolicity of the Swedish Lutheran Church. It also explains why I am deeply concerned that this particular form of the Lutheran tradition is slowly being forgoten and/or dismissed amongst certain circles in the Covenant. There are those who seem to want this aspect of our heritage to be kept as a mere footnote to our history. The moment that would happen at the center of the Covenant I would no longer know my denomination, and it would cease to be the faith I was taught.
Parallels my experience with Anglicanism.