As a Protestant who is both ecumenically minded and who takes ecumenism to be seeking to be truly catholic (I do understand that not all interpret ecumenism in this way), The Claims of Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy are two horns of a dilemma upon which I find myself gored. Part of this problem is that I know that I as a Protestant and a Lutheran Pietist have a residual grudge with the Roman pontiff. I know that part of my attraction to Eastern Orthodoxy is that it shares my Protestant ambivalence (Remember I am ecumenically minded so the old polemics against the Pope seem a bit overdone ) or even polemic against current Papal claims. Yet, at the same time I also have to admit that there is/was something to the "seat of Peter" and I certainly can't deny that until the Great Schism that the Church held the Bishop of Rome in high esteem and that the Bishop of Rome was seen as a defender of the faith and an important possibly even essential one. But I still can't get away from what seems to be a great gulf between ancient and early medieval Papal "primacy" and what emerged especially after the schism (though evidence of this direction can be found a century or two prior.
The other problem is that both East and West continued to develop doctrinally at times in ways that at least on surface seem incompatible even beyond the question of the Papacy.
So in doing some surfing I happened upon a few months old post at the Pontificator's explaining why his interest as an Episcopalian in Orthodoxy did not lead to his becoming Orthodox and why he instead has become Roman Catholic. The June 9th post is interesting and I recommend a read of it, and a perusal of its 421 comments, some very interesting responces to the post from both sides of the fence and from some on neither side of that fence.
I find the post interesting on many levels. First it reflects some of my own struggles though with the obvious differing conclusions (though who knows). Second while I recognize his struggle I find both his appeal to mystery and his attempt to account for what he claims to be inexplicable unconvincing. (I have e-mialed him to let him know I am commenting on this old post of his.) primarily because his accounting is simply articulating what is the problem of being outside these two churches: that there is no way to judge their differing claims to be the One True Church. From the outside I can see that there is historical precedence for a type of Papal "primacy" but it is far from clear based on that same historicity that what Roman Catholicism currently claims for the Pope is in fact the same thing Pope's and the Church have always claimed for the good Bishop of Rome. Yet, Orthodoxy doesn't seem to do too well in addressing where Petrine minsitry is continued in Orthodoxy, nor how to account for its loss at the schism and still have the one Church. (now it is possible that I have not read widely enough to find such explications.) Frankly, as a Protestant Orthodoxy's claims are more palatable than Romes. Even a scholar like Carl Braaten who is Lutheran and sees some role for the Bishop of Rome isn't really entirely comfortable with current assertions made by Roman Catholicism about the Popes role and, to put it bluntly, power. So, where I am lead in terms of Rome and Orthodoxy is a both/and and not a either/or, (or niether/nor which seems to be some of my Protestant siblings responce to this dilemma). But really neither Rome nor Orthodoxy even in their most irenic poses allows for such a proposition because it means that in some sense both are in schism from each other that neither can claim the high ground. This of course causes theological problems on the level of ecclesiology for both, since the church is one not simply in some abstract sense but in a concrete and historic sense. This claim makes sense to me abstractly, but seems contradicted by the history that stands plainly before us.
Also, the discussion that followed was interesting, very much like watching tennis though. But what this leaves me with is the impression of a competition going on between Rome and Orthodoxy, each trying to convince the other (and any observers) through there astute use of Scripture, Patristics and rational argument who really deserves the trophy of the Una Sancta. I do not mean to impune anyones intentions here because at least in the comments left on this post it is clear that most if not all are deeply respectful of each other and are in fact convinced of the truth of their position. What I want to say to both sides of these arguments which have been in one form or another taking place for well over a thousand years (since the Great Schism it can be argued began a century or two before the split officially occurred), is do you really think your claim to Papal Primacy and your denial of it in it current articulation really convinces anyone that you are followers of Jesus Christ and members of his Body? Frankly given our track record for the past thousand years, I can sympathize and empathize with those friends and aqcuaintances of mine who look at these and other arguments that seem to consume us as Christians and find no evidence of Christ or His Body (whoever can actually claim to be that, I do not mean to argue here that all of us who claim to be Christians are in fact all members of the Body of Christ). I have to admit that to some degree when I see these sorts of almost pendantic debates I am frankly embarassed for us Christians. This is not because I think that some how dogma is unimportant or that these questions are inconsequential. However I love Christ I love the Church, I want people to find Christ and to find their home in the Church, but much of the wrangling about this or that seems to lift up things like the Bishop or Rome or Not having the Bishop of Rome as the cornerstone of the Church. When in the end the Pope is nothing, the Patriarch of Constantinople is nothing, the Heirarchy of the Church is nothing, the Councils of the Church are nothing unless they show forth the Gospel of Jesus Christ and lead people not to follow the Bishop of Rome or the Councils but Christ the Head of the Church. It seems that at least in the debates I have followed that this is often forgotten.
In the end this I know: it isn't these debates that keep open for me the question of where the Una Sacta is, it is in fact the love of individual Roman Catholics and Orthodox who accept my struggle and say very lovingly "...But do you see where Protestantism is deficient here", and then say "May God bless you on your Journey." As my wife has said of one of our Orthodox friends, it is those who smell of Jesus both Orthodox and Roman Catholic who keep me from being complacently Protestant. All your arguments in the end are stale, it is when you present Christ that I am convinced but then there is always this thousand year old dispute, which sends me into a theological tail spin.
So for now I will co-pastor a tiny ecumenical congregation, write icons and pray. Lord, have mercy.
Derek,
ReplyDeleteInteresting sentiment, about converts. It is perhaps true about Chesteron and Newman but I do not know that it is the fact of their being converts is the reason. I know Chesterton and Newman, and have found both to be as you describe. I have not heard of before know either Soloviev or Bouyer, I will look for them. And Balthasar has been one of my many companions on the way.
Thanks for the encouragement, and I hope my post did not give the impression of cynicism.
Peace,
Larry
Nice post!
ReplyDeleteOnly one think I'd like to add:
Discussions about Papal Primacy are not just about Papal Primacy. They are not even about "power".
As a Roman Catholic, I believe I have no right to dissent with the Apostles (bishops) who are in communion with Peter (Pope).
For Roman Catholics, it's all about... Scripture. (Yes, even if it's not always clear for non-[R.]Catholics).
Antonio,
ReplyDeleteI am with you on that it is about Scripture(I am not one of those Protestants who retains the false notion that Roman Catholics trump Scripture with merely human traditions, or Tradition). Though it is perhaps on the point of dissent that I pause, not because I have some great faith in my personal opinions, but because it is unclear what happened in the Great Schism, and that while the handing on of the deposite of faith was seen in the tradtion as resting largely in the Bishiops, the deposite rested with the faithful, and neither a magisterium nor solely with one Bishop. Since, the issue is Scripture and thus the deposit of the faith, then the role of the faithful must be considered as well in this discussion. Your comment about dissent seems to put the place of the faithful in a potentialy in a completely passive role. Granted this ends up happening among Protestants as well, and certainly I know from expereince that it doesn't create passivity necesarily. However, it is in the theological implication which can also have the result of passive faithful. Along these lines the Orthodox seem to have a more dynamic view of the Church at the interelationship of heirarchy and laity as the people of God. Another caveat, I am familiar with how Vatican II attempts to address this but even Vatican II (re)formulations still leave me wanting.
Peace,
Larry
Larry:
ReplyDeleteNice post.
Hopefully I am one of those Eastward-converting-soon-to-be-former Protestants who present a pleasing savor of Orthodoxy.
Blesssings.
I knew "dissent" was not the most accurate word. (You know, I'm from Argentina, and my English is not good enough).
ReplyDeleteMaybe "disobey" goes better.
About the role of the faithful, it has been so important in the Church's history than no one can even try to deny it.
What I'm trying to say, is that I believe in "justification by faith". But when faith equals "obedience".
And yes, "what happened in the Great Schism" is such a big disaster, that I can understand all hesitations (if that's the correct word).
Antonio,
ReplyDeleteThankyou for the clarification. Faith certainly to be true faith, can't be mere assent to something without conformity to a way of life consistetn with the deposite of the Faith.
Perhaps, I am still learning what this means, and I remain uncertain that obedience to the Bishop of rome ensures this.
Peace,
Larry
King Solomon also converted at the height of his reflective powers, but remember it was to something other than the pure faith of Abraham. There is much instructive in that.
ReplyDeleteSome married men also at the height of their reflective powers, which usually means MID-LIFE, end up having an affair. Since the human heart is highly deceptive, I can't help but wonder if some of these mid-life conversions from Protestantism to Orthodoxy or to Roman Catholicism aren't at some deep level just a substitute for having a fling. These men study and study the ecclesiastical issues and somehow they usually end up joining the church they wanted to join in the first place, as if it were already a foregone conclusion when they started their quest. Is there nothing suspicious in that?
My plea to would-be converts to Rome and Orthodoxy is this: choose instead Christ's appointed way of self-denial and suffering, i.e., REMAIN PROTESTANT.
Joel,
ReplyDeleteI am not sure what your point about mid-life crisis is, but to impune the motives of the people under discussion. Affairs involve deciept which you clearly believe converts from Portestantism to Catholicism or Orthodoxy have decieved themselves, but there is nothing in the way in which Newman and Chesterton converted that they did so with alterior motives or deciept.
And lastly, if you think Protestantism is always a faith of self denial and suffering you must be fairly sheltered.
I agree that we are to seek the way of Christ and the Cross, but we should be careful about trumpting our own piety and being too quick to point out specks in others eyes when we have our own planks in our own eyes.