Thursday, March 22, 2007

Immorality Sin Self-Reighteousness and Dissent

So I have had a couple of failed posts. I have several things I'd like to post on, but when I have the energy I don't have the time and when I have a moment I just have not had the energy to put out anything. I am finding that I might actually be in a position of dissent, and it really doesn't fall along lines of conservative or liberal. I am tempted to say this is a form of following Christ that is a complete dissent from the world and all its systems and philosophies that try to pass themselves off as the Truth, even if they deny "Truth" and espouse a relativism.

Read an article this morning about Barack Obama getting flack for not speaking out against one of the joint chiefs of staff saying in an interview that homosexuality was immoral.(I don't have time at the moment to find a link to this story, I read it in hard format.)

On one hand I can understand the offense taken by such a comment. For it perhaps is not a far reach from saying homosexuality is immoral to saying that persons who are homosexual are immoral in their persons. However, I find that reach an implausible one to make. morality is not binary. I am not either moral or immoral. I can tell lies on occasion, but not be greedy or do other immoral things. I wonder though if my views on this are too Christian. I do in fact believe that everyone including myself is sinful. None of us is in truth paragons of virtue or morality. Confession is a sacrament precisely for this reason. If it were possible to be completely upright as a human there would be no place or need for confession.

While I may disagree with the person who said that homosexuality is immoral, I hardly find that holding and expressing such a view is worthy of censure. Even if it is true it is hardly the same thing as saying that homosexual persons are immoral, and is not the same as saying they should be treated as second class citizens etc. Though I think I understand the fear of the label that such a comment might lead to, IE "sexual deviant", and thus being subject to various forms of persecution and .

I don't see how we can claim that discourse surrounding sexual morality can be censured, just because "we" believe that opinion is false and potentially harmful. Especially since that is what the conservatives apparently want just the reverse. Rather it seems a truly "open and democratic society" would have to live with a variety of opinions about sexual morality. And this is true whether or there is a genetic component to sexual expression. Science is not morality, and it is dangerous if not a confusion of categories to expect science to provide guidance on moral issues. The tension we would be willing to live with if we were in fact truly a tolerant society would be that our public policy would come from compromises of a variety of opinions and position based on opposing and contradictory positions. That is public life would be unsatisfactory to everyone in our society, and this would be especially so in regards to sexual morality.

Currently it seems there is a winner take all mentality that especially exists surrounding the public policy and face around appropriate opinions on sexuality.

Now there is probably a whole in my logic as articulated above. But my point is that there is a self-righteousness in the vocal left currently in this country that matches the self-righteousness of the vocal right. This self-righteousness leads people to think that people should be censured for saying things that contradict their position and may pose a danger to their lifestyle and POV.

I understand that a public official saying homosexuality is immoral is painful and even frightening, but unless we begin to enforce an orthodoxy that is simply the opposite of conservatism and fundamentalism, there is no reason to object to a public official expressing such an opinion. I for one have no desire to live in a liberal utopia where such opinions cannot be expressed in public, by a public official. Such a society seems to be as oppressive (obviously to different people) as the society in which traditional sexuality is the only view allowed to be expressed publicly and in the open. There is a self-righteousness in these responses that I find odious and from which I will dissent.

But incidents like this causes me wonder if I have come to "liberal" views based on non-liberal presuppositions. I have liberal opinions because I believe the world is complex and sinful and that people can be simultaneously moral and immoral. I do not hold liberal views because I believe that those who hold other opinions are all backward and fascist whose opinions need to be reformed and suppressed. I believe capitalism needs to be regulated because people are selfish and greedy and will not on their own impulses look out for the good of society and nature. I believe that it is better to allow a variety of forms of sexuality in the open because even if they are sin they are no more sin than any other vices we openly allow and censure no one for. Lets just say I was for protecting gays and lesbians from discrimination long before I concluded that there was an appropriate way for homosexuality to be expressed. Though when I reflect on my own position I realize that I am still working within a fairly traditional view of sexuality, that it is appropriate only between two people who have committed themselves to a permanent relationship. Anything else is a sin and immoral. I do not judge people in their person on the degree to which they agree or disagree with this moral stance.

This is my question: Is it really "liberal" or progressive to censure public moral discourse? Isn't that censorship that "we" get all up in arms about when the right does and conservatives do it?

15 comments:

  1. I think in an age of Abu Ghraib and Gitmo, the joint chiefs really shouldn't be lecturing anyone on matters of sexual morality. But since they have decided to do so, I think it completely reasonable to criticize them for it. They have the right to say what they want, and we have the right to point out their hypocrisy. That's not censoring public moral discourse. That's *having* public moral discourse. Discourse being something that you can only have when more than one side is aired.

    -Angeli

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  2. Angeli,
    I agree with you. And had the news article talked about what you have mentioned and had the criticism reported been around hypocrisy of the comments I would have no problem with the criticism.
    However, the criticism as reported in the article were not about these things but simply claimed they "should" not have been said and that such should not be said by any public official, Abu Graib and Gitmo or not.
    I tend to agree with you that the comments are probably hypocritical and I was not intending to defend the remarks, only that such remarks should be allowable in public discource, as should the opposing view. However when the opposing view says that the articulation of that view should not be articulated publicly I will dissent.

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  3. I tend to agree with you, Larry. I agree that he should have the right to say what he believes, though I disagree with it. It makes me think of the actor who went into rehab for uttering a slur against homosexuals.

    On the one hand, it shows how far we've come in the last decade alone. A decade ago these kind of comments were normal and expected. But it does seem to me that liberals are becoming precisely the caricatures that conservatives make them out to be. I have heard liberals branded as people who are all for free speech as long as it agrees with them, and this example points towards that description of them.

    How can we have true and honest discussion about homosexuality between people who have different views on it without both sides being able to speak their beliefs.

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  4. Well, there is also the context to consider.

    The joint chiefs are not just talking about homosexuality in general or sexual morality in general but about individuals who are in their chain of command, whose lives depend on the support of their fellow soldiers.

    As private citizens, expressing such opinions may be part of a true and honest discussion about homosexuality, but in their professional capacity they are putting lives at risk by condoning homophobic attitudes.
    -Angeli

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  5. I believe (and hope) in that last sentence you meant "...with both sided beign able to speak their beliefs."

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  6. Angeli,
    And there's the rub, saying that homosexuality is immoral is not homophobic. To say otherwise is to disallow any disgreement on the moral status of homosexuality or on sexuality in general.
    While I will agree that it was unwise for the official to speak as he did, and do not condone it. I will simply say again we are on thin ice when we begin to simply object to someone even someone in an official capacity, who may or may not be hypocritical, for speaking an opinion we find objectionable.

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  7. Actually, I meant for it to be a question. "How can we... without both sides being able to speak their beliefs?" I even try to proof myself before I send in a comment and still mess it up.

    Angeli, I think the problem is that many take the statement that homosexuality is immoral to be homophobia, and I'm not sure it necessarily is. In my path towards accepting that there are legitimate expressions of homosexual love, I also went through a time where I believed that homosexuality was wrong, it was a sin. But I had a number of homosexual friends who I got along with wonderfully. So, I would say that during that time I believed that homosexuality was immoral, but I am pretty sure I was not a homophobe. Now, before I had met any practicing homosexuals, I was very homophobic, so I think there is a difference to be made. At the same time, and I don't remember the exact comments made by the official, I do seem to remember that they were homophobic to a certain degree, talking about fears of homosexuals and saying that they would make it harder for people to serve in the military. It is not an easy road to walk, and I understand why people spoke up against his statement, but I do think that it is the statement that needs to be spoken against and not his right to say it.

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  8. Gavin,
    Your comment brings to light that my responce here really doesn't have to do directly with the officials statement since I have not seen it, but rather the form certain criticism took and specificaly criticism of Obama's responce.
    I am actually at this time ignorant of what exactly the official said, except that he is reported to have said that "homosexuality is immoral." and this only was what was being criticized and not his other remarks that as you are remebering them I would agree sound homophobic.

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  9. Angeli, I think the problem is that many take the statement that homosexuality is immoral to be homophobia, and I'm not sure it necessarily is.

    I think this is fine as an intellectual argument held entirely between straight people, but if you are homosexual, it has got to be mighty darned tiresome to have non-homosexual people weighing in on the morality of your existence, even while claiming not to be homophobic -- which is a matter for your conscience, really but not the point at all.

    Unless we go back to expelling any gay member of the military, then the high command can't show through word or deed that they will tolerate treating gays and lesbians as anything other than full citizens. To do anything else in a combat situation is endangering them.

    A similar situation might be this: I'm sure you've heard ... they're having a little problem with women being raped by their fellow soldiers in some units in Iraq. Overwhelmingly the women in the military say that when the command makes it clear that mistreating women will not be tolerated, they don't have problems. It's when the troops on the ground get the message that certain attitudes and behaviors are acceptable that you start seeing this kind of violence.

    The military, for this reason, does not tolerate a lot of things, including adultery and racial slurs.

    -A

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  10. Angeli,
    Again I agree with you and had the criticism reported taken your stance I would have not gone the direction I did in my comments.
    Nothing I saw in the report was arguing what you are arguing that his remarks endangered people etc., but simply stated in an absolute maner that it was unacceptable for any public official and/or any public discource to make the statement "that Homosexuaility is immoral." Not mind you that homosexuals are immoral people. See in my post my understanding of that distincition.
    Now maybe what I missed is that the official in fact said that homosexuals were immoral and untrustworthy, that is a whole other kettle of fish.
    But my point really wasn't about this particular instance but the general state of moral discource in our public discource, and there do seem to be from a "liberal" perspective a willingness to censor that which does not agree with the "liberal" understanding of morality. In that sense we are not in fact about an open and tolerant society, but a non-conservative or traditional society. I will dissent from that as much as I dissent from the rightist and conservative monolithic society.

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  11. I do hear what you're saying, Angeli, and having heard about the problems women were having in the military (on NPR?), you make a real and valid point.

    At the same time, it was precisely because my mostly-closeted friends in college were willing to accept me as a safe person even though at the time I believed that homosexuality was a sin, that I was able to get to know them as homosexuals. And it was through discussions with these homosexual friends in college and seminary that I was convicted to re-look at the scriptures I had been reading to suggest that homosexuality was a sin.

    I think that if these same college friends had just labeled me as a homophobe, and left it at that, I'd most likely still be one.

    But your point about the military and sanctioning truly reprehensable behavior is more than valid.

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  12. too...many...people...in...conversation!!! Can't...keep...on...train...of...thought... Not...trying...to...gang...up...on...anybody...
    Will...leave...Larry...to...continue...the...discussion...
    (It's his blog, after all)

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  13. Larry, I think I agree with you in the abstract, but the practical reality is that some kinds of speech have consequences ... perhaps unintended consequences, but nonetheless. In Europe ... Germany especially ... they're painfully aware of the impact of, say, Anti-Semetic rhetoric and how it indirectly leads to violence.

    Now I don't think that banning anyone's views is the right answer ... the answer to bad speech is more speech. But I don't think the "liberal" stance on this is wrong especially in the context of military and political leadership! When you take that kind of role in society you take the responsibility that goes along with that role ... including having people call you out on whatever you say, be it against gays, Christians, Mr. Potato-head fans ...

    In the military in particular one routinely is prohibited from all kinds of public speech, including political involvement. There are also few other professions where you can get fired or demoted for adultery (including the ministry! Look at Ted Haggard!) But the military recognizes that the nature of their role means they have to work under different rules. This has been used as an argument for banning gays from the military entirely, and while I'm not advocating that, it would at least be internally consistent.

    When it comes to sports stars thats another matter, because their "leadership" position is murky. But I don't think anyone should be above criticism for saying they hate entire groups of people, and that's not the same as censorship. That's what you accept when you enter the public arena.
    -A

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  14. BTW I did not argue in my post that public officials were exempt from being criticised about what they say. If you are a public official and you speak on a controvertial subject or you say something many or a majority disaprove of one should expect controversy and criticism. It was a particular type of criticism I was critiqueing one that seemed to want to silence a particular form of discourse.
    And I certainly was not arguing that we should stand by and let a public official say they hate and that it is alright to hate a certain group of people or whole groups of people.

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